{"id":45860,"date":"2015-02-08T21:23:33","date_gmt":"2015-02-09T03:23:33","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/?p=45860"},"modified":"2025-09-08T05:11:00","modified_gmt":"2025-09-08T10:11:00","slug":"podcast-100-the-kill-switch-with-phil-zabriskie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/character\/military\/podcast-100-the-kill-switch-with-phil-zabriskie\/","title":{"rendered":"Podcast #100: The Kill Switch with Phil Zabriskie"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"art19-web-player awp-medium awp-theme-dark-blue\" data-episode-id=\"53f18d2d-8e25-4bf0-baa3-ceaf668ddf2b\"><\/div>\n<p>What does it mean to kill for your country? How do you learn to do it? What does it feel like in the moment? And how do you feel about it when you&#8217;re back home from war and with your family?<\/p>\n<p>In <i>The Kill Switch&nbsp;<\/i>writer Phil Zabriskie interviews combat veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and asks them to talk about something most combat veterans don&#8217;t like talking about: what it&#8217;s like to kill another human being. Some of the stories Phil re-counts are jarring, especially for a country where only 1% of the population actually serves in the military, and only a small&nbsp;percentage of that already tiny number actually sees combat.&nbsp;The book, and our discussion about it, is both fascinating and sobering.<\/p>\n<h3>Show Highlights<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li>The training process soldiers go though to overcome their resistance to killing other humans<\/li>\n<li>The responses soldiers gave Phil when he asked what it was like to kill (and how he brought a topic like that up)<\/li>\n<li>How a soldier deals with the fact that he took another human life<\/li>\n<li>What the research says the act of killing does to a soldier psychologically<\/li>\n<li>Why Phil thinks it&#8217;s important civilians understand what it&#8217;s like for a soldier to kill<\/li>\n<li>And much more!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00P6ZP4PK\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00P6ZP4PK&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess-20&amp;linkId=MIVM5IXUT6RLZ3G4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-45861 size-full\" title=\"the kill switch by phil zabriskie\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/02\/81Hqi725GxL._SL1500_-e1423331915419.jpg\" alt=\"The Kill Switch by Phil Zabriskie.\" width=\"250\" height=\"345\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>You can pick up&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00P6ZP4PK\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00P6ZP4PK&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess-20&amp;linkId=MIVM5IXUT6RLZ3G4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The Kill Switch&nbsp;<\/em><\/a>for your Amazon Kindle for just $2.99.<\/p>\n<h3>Listen to the Podcast! (And don\u2019t forget to leave us a review!)<\/h3>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-art-of-manliness\/id332516054?mt=2\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49206 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/available-on-itunes.png\" alt=\"Available on itunes.\" width=\"250\" height=\"92\" data-pin-nopin=\"true\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49207 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/available-on-stitcher.png\" alt=\"Available on stitcher.\" width=\"250\" height=\"92\" data-pin-nopin=\"true\"\/><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/artofmanliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49208 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/soundcloud-logo.png\" alt=\"Soundcloud logo.\" width=\"250\" height=\"127\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/pcasts.in:443\/NwCI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49655\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/\/2015\/08\/pocketcasts.png\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 225px) 100vw, 225px\" srcset=\"\" alt=\"Pocketcasts logo.\" width=\"225\" height=\"225\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/managemusic?t=The_Art_of_Manliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-56926 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/05\/google-play-podcast-e1464287132541.png\" alt=\"Google play podcast.\" width=\"250\" height=\"190\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/2vJHmWhhcMQRXtTruuFWTJ\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-81682\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2018\/01\/open-graph-default.png\" alt=\"Spotify Logo.\" width=\"248\" height=\"130\" srcset=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2018\/01\/open-graph-default.png 400w, https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2018\/01\/open-graph-default-320x168.png 320w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 248px) 100vw, 248px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>Listen to the episode on a separate page.<\/p>\n<p>Download this episode.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.omnycontent.com\/d\/playlist\/aaea4e69-af51-495e-afc9-a9760146922b\/6081eee7-c459-4e12-a1ab-aadc000fc4a7\/413a6904-4d72-4be8-9421-aadc000fc4ba\/podcast.rss\">Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice.<\/a><\/p>\n<p><em><strong>Special thanks to&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/keelanohara.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Keelan O\u2019Hara<\/a>&nbsp;for editing the podcast!<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<h3>Read the Transcript<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast, so a while back ago we had on the podcast Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, he wrote the book on killing, where he goes into detail about the physiological effects that killing has on soldiers and law enforcement officers.<\/p>\n<p>Since his book there hasn\u2019t been too much else written about the topic of killing from the context of war. I imagine because it\u2019s a unpleasant topic to think, research and write about but our guest today has recently published an Amazon Kindle book called <em>The Kill Switch<\/em> in which he interviews and talks to soldiers and veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and asked them what it was like to kill.<\/p>\n<p>What effect it\u2019s had on them in their lives after their service. Our guest is Phil Zabriskie, he\u2019s spent nearly a decade working and doing journalism overseas. He has covered both Afghanistan and Iraq along with the news and events in Pakistan, Israel, the Palestinian territories, Indonesia and The Philippines.<\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s been a staff writer for Time Magazine. He\u2019s written for The National Geographic and New York Magazine, Washington Post and he recently began his book as <em>The Kill Switch<\/em>, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to talk about today. A really fascinating discussion, so let\u2019s do this. Phil Zabriskie welcome to the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Thank you it\u2019s great to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Your book is The Kill Switch, it\u2019s about killing in combat, particularly in the recent Afghanistan and Iraq wars but can you tell us about your work that led up to this book and what caused you \u2026 Was there something specific that caused you to write this little Amazon Kindle singles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Sure I had not set out to cover conflict, that wasn\u2019t my intention and I don\u2019t think of myself as a war correspondent in any shape or form. It just so happened that I like a number of people of my generation so to speak got caught in this foot stream that happened after September 11th and led to more stories that had to do with conflict.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019d been spending time conflict zones and a host of different countries looking primarily at how people were affected by what was going on around them and primarily civilians, the people who were living though. I went to Afghanistan first and then later to Iraq and then mainly it was un-embedded, I wasn\u2019t doing military. I wasn\u2019t focused on the military, I tried to cover the broader story and this is when I worked for Time Magazine.<\/p>\n<p>I was part of these bureaus in these places and part of teams that were collectively trying to cover these things, but I did on a few occasions spend time with the military and did \u2026 Especially in 2004 when the war was really turning, I wound up in some fire fights and saw some people who were wounded and killed, saw soldiers and marines coming back after being in fire fights and got a sense how they responded and how what had just happened or what had been happening over the previous weeks or months was effecting them and weighing them.<\/p>\n<p>I saw some instances where civilians got shot. One in particular was a man who got shot in the face when he drove through a check point, then probably out of panic and the guys who shot him were incredibly distraught, o there was a whole range of things going on that very clearly showed there was much more than just what happened on that day.<\/p>\n<p>I did one story in particular about combat stress which was an effort, it had to do with \u2026 pardon, an effort the military\u2019s making in putting councilors closer to the front line, so they could talk to guys as things were happening in case anything came up that might make them less combat ready or might be particularly troubling, whatever the case might be.<\/p>\n<p>The psychological issues in the moment and beyond where it were very much on my mind. Then later years I then went back to Afghanistan several times, I spent time in Israel, on Palestinian territories, including Ghaza and some other places touched by conflict. Even when the wars were over substansibly you could still see the traces of them, you could see the impact and it was quite clear that they would last far and beyond the time when the last bullet was fired.<\/p>\n<p>When I moved back to The States a few years back, I was always reading and watching the coverage of the wars and there\u2019s some amazing works done and some great books, great documentaries and things like that. Often times it felt like something was missing and to me that piece that was missing especially in coverage of The US forces over there was the killing.<\/p>\n<p>It did seem like it was not talked about as much as it was being done. It seemed like a real blind spot. I had myself gotten married and had a daughter so I wasn\u2019t about to go back to these conflict zones, but looking at this question gave me a way to continue to address it and because I did not feel done with it.<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t feel it was done with me so to speak, but I wanted to keep working on this and this was a way of doing it and then I got lucky and that some of the people that I contacted were willing to talk about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Yeah that\u2019s the interesting thing is that the only other book that I\u2019ve aware of that goes into the psychology of killing is David Grossman\u2019s book on killing, but yeah for the most part people don\u2019t like to talk about this aspect of war.<\/p>\n<p>What is it, that\u2019s why we go to war and that\u2019s sort of the &#8230; We try to avoid conflict and we want to avoid it but in the end you\u2019re there to inflict harm on the enemy so they stop inflicting harm on you. What\u2019s with the reluctance, particularly in modern times of talking about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s psychological, it\u2019s a very dark subject, it\u2019s not the easiest thing to look at and I know my wife could tell you one of the times I was really deep into this stuff I wasn\u2019t in the greatest mood and it certainly affected me.<\/p>\n<p>I think as political leaders are not going to talk about it because they don\u2019t really want that piece of it being considered if the public\u2019s trying to decide are they for this or against this. Even in the military they don\u2019t talk about it all that much because at least the psychological piece of it and the potential for its lingering afterwards because they might lose some people.<\/p>\n<p>That it just gets in the way of doing the job in certain ways, so all of that combines with some other factors as well, it\u2019s just something that gets left out and I think also a country\u2019s probably not terribly anxious to look at the killing it\u2019s doing because you can say, \u201cIt\u2019s this soldier, this marine, this navy seal,\u201d but in a way they\u2019re fighting for us. They\u2019re fighting in our name so it\u2019s overall of us are involved in it one way or another.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: In your book you mention the study, it\u2019s a very famous study done in World War 2 or after World War 2 by SLA Marshall and the conclusion of that study is that 75% of soldiers during World War 2 who were in combat never fired at the enemy and either fired over the head or just never even aimed.<\/p>\n<p>In recent years those numbers have been called into question and that it wasn\u2019t that high, but has there been any updates, studies on the reluctance of soldiers to fire at the enemy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Not that I know of but if you look at just and I of course know about the controversy you\u2019re talking about, I mentioned Marshall in this story, I didn\u2019t really get into \u2026 I mentioned that there\u2019s controversy about his numbers but I didn\u2019t really want to get into it all that much, because I\u2019m not really qualified to judge his work.<\/p>\n<p>I did say that even if half of that number was true in a war against Adolf Hitler\u2019s Nazi soldiers it\u2019s pretty remarkable and it would suggest that a very strong reluctance to take life, especially if you can see someone whose right in front of you. At the same time though you look at World War 2, tens of millions of people were killed. In World War 1, tens of millions of people were killed and I don\u2019t kwon that we \u2026<\/p>\n<p>I certainly hope we will never have a war like that again but I doubt it. Now we\u2019re talking thousands, tens of thousands, hundred of thousands and then it\u2019s a huge, huge number but you\u2019re not having cities that get caught, maybe outside, maybe in Syria you are, but you\u2019re not largely having cities getting carpet bombed as a matter of course, as a tactic though as an accepted tactic of military strategy.<\/p>\n<p>Overall there\u2019s just not a whole lot of studies on this sort of thing, killing in general, not that I could find and located. There are a handful but the military when I contacted them they said they didn\u2019t track how many soldiers kill other people, they didn\u2019t track how it effects them afterwards and there\u2019s a chance that\u2019s not true but and that they don\u2019t talk about that stuff because of the body count stuff that happened in Vietnam during Vietnam.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s pretty surprising to me because even if like you say it\u2019s part of their job, it\u2019s part of what they need to do so you figure as an organization that wanted to track it\u2019s performance they would look at these things. You have Grossman, more recently a woman named Shera Mcgowin, I think is how you say her name, at the San Francisco VA, at one of the San Francisco VA\u2019s has done some studies showing that soldiers who kill are twice as likely to deal with PTSD and other mental health issues as those who don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not that everyone is going to be deeply affected by it but I had at this point an instructor tell me that they phrase it as killing being the biggest moral decision one can make and the biggest taboo one can break. It stands to reason that those who killed other people will be carrying something that those who do not are free of. They may have their own catalogue of traumatic incidents they\u2019re encountered but that wouldn\u2019t be one of them.<\/p>\n<p>In this past war in Iraq and Afghanistan with the nature of the enemy and the nature of the fight you also have a lot of people who aren\u2019t really sure if they\u2019d killed somebody or not. You would come back and they will say, \u201cWell I think I got somebody,\u201d but they couldn\u2019t really see them.<\/p>\n<p>An ID would go off if some gun fire would come out of an ally or something like that, and they\u2019d shoot towards it but they might never see anyone there. You have a lot of people who may come home and even when they get asked if they\u2019re ever asked about it they may not be sure what the answer is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: We may not know the exact number of how reluctant \u2026 what percentage of people in combat actually don\u2019t fire at the enemy but the military understands that there is a reluctance to kill other humans. You talk about what the military\u2019s done over the years to train soldiers to prepare themselves to kill. Can you talk about a bit of that training that has developed since World War 2?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Sure yeah and just being there, their job and part of their job I think they\u2019ve put a lot of effort in designing programs that will help their charges carried out. One way to put it is that they want people getting into combat, almost feeling almost as if they\u2019ve been there before like it happened before so that when they have to do is a series of learn memories and habits more than try to figure something out for the first time .<\/p>\n<p>Back in the training when that starts almost from day one there\u2019s a process where the military\u2019s creating a context in which killing and dying will make sense and then also training in the mechanisms needed to carry it out so you might have &#8230; or you do have a language being a big part of it where even in boot camp an order will be given and instead of saying yes they\u2019ll say,\u201d Kill run that hill, kill run that ..\u201d That\u2019s the response.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a lot of talk, \u201cYou\u2019re a killer. Can you be a killer? You\u2019re not a killer,\u201d and that sort of stuff where it sort of becomes an everyday language and it normalizes something that would have, I think be very abnormal part of that. There\u2019s jokes that devalue life a little bit and then again make it almost like a softer cell.<\/p>\n<p>Then you have a chaplain and superior offices who are on hand to talk about some of the philosophical or even religious aspects of it, the distinction between \u201cThou shall not kill and thou shall not murder. How the hell that \u2026 It\u2019s \u201cThou shall not murder\u201d and then there\u2019s some space to kill and in the right context,\u201d and to say that, \u201cKilling can be protecting, an act of protection or by you protecting us you\u2019re with \u2026\u201d but also perhaps even, \u201cYou kill more you end the war sooner, fewer people die,\u201d things like that and that it all fits into this warrior ethos where it\u2019s part of the duty.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s part of looking after each other, part of living up to the oath they\u2019ve taken and then at the same time you\u2019ve got the physical aspects, learning to handle weapons, learning to fire those weapons, clean those weapons, become very familiar with them, then firing them in certain conditions, under stress and specific scenarios and moving up from paper targets to human shaped targets, to ever more lifelike facsimiles of actual people.<\/p>\n<p>Then even some drills that involve other people playing insurgents and as the war went on you had more and more commanders realizing, \u201cI need to do more than just the basic training,\u201d so they would call in specialists who could create villagers with insurgents and they would have special effects and bombing and things like that, to again make it feel like they\u2019ve been there before.<\/p>\n<p>One of the units that I looked at in the story are one of the main guys that was in the Third Battalion Fifth Marine Regiment which fought in Fallujah in 2004. They before they deployed for that battle worked with a Hollywood studio guy who made this village and they had a Vietnam veteran and a guy who\u2019d worked with the New York Police Department for a long time, come out as well and talk to them about urban combat in particular and how to conduct themselves in that specific environment.<\/p>\n<p>He had this mantra that he gave them which was, \u201cSlow, smooth, smooth is fast. Never make an uncover move and see the mother fucker and kill the mother fucker and quit thinking about it.\u201d All of that was designed to say, \u201cDon\u2019t panic, remember your responsibilities. If it comes to that just take care of business and carry on.\u201d I\u2019ve heard and I know Grossman said that a hunters have a leg up on this because they maybe have had an experience of having killed another being before.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know if that makes some sense but I think it\u2019s limited, only applicable to a point when you\u2019re in these actual places and there\u2019s actual people in front of you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I thought it was interesting that you highlight the soldiers that were killed an insurgent, and you talked about it like it was a training exercise. He saw the target and he just sort of habit, reflex came in and he just followed through like he was back in The States training for this, that\u2019s what it was like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Yeah he said he raised the rifle, then lowered the riffle and looked at the next target and I think he\u2019s exact words were it was like a twenty five meter target at that moment and then it was only later on when he was looking back at it did he think that, \u201cOh that was actually a person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Throughout the book you talk to several soldiers and veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan war about their experience on killing. My first question, how do you bring a topic up like that, how do you broach the subject with a soldier on that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: In this case I think it made a huge difference that I had been over there and that I\u2019d met these guys before. I\u2019m not going to claim we were friends or I knew them well or spent &#8230; There\u2019s a lot of people who spent more time over there than I did and a lot of people who were in many more fire fights than I was, but just even having some experience and them knowing they saw you there, like in a way I gone to their place of work to learn about what they did.<\/p>\n<p>I think that engendered a level of understanding that was very helpful and then really I just asked them, I was very upfront about what I was trying to do, I wasn\u2019t trying to pretend I was talking about one thing and then ask them about this. I was very clear that I understood it was not a small thing to be asking them to discuss publically. Then I said that I just wanted to look at this squarely and soberly I didn\u2019t want to make to make to \u2026<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t want to sensationalize anything, I didn\u2019t want to say, \u201cOh this is crazy, these people are killing, they\u2019re blood thirsty,\u201d whatever, I just wanted to understand how this was playing out for them, when they were deployed and then afterwards. I think something about that existing trust was I guess made them feel I guess somewhat comfortable or at least willing to try to do this.<\/p>\n<p>Then I would go do the interviews, long interviews and often in many cases and there wasn\u2019t really any one kind of answer that would come out when I would ask them about this specific stuff, but they were frank and they were forthcoming. In certain instances it almost felt like they wanted to talk about it, like they were glad to have the chance because there\u2019d been so little opportunities before other than maybe they\u2019re on an airplane and someone says, \u201cHey did you kill anyone,\u201d or that kind of stuff, that it is really reductive and a lot of guys really hate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Was there a story that you heard from one of the soldiers that you interviewed that was particularly jarring?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Well there are a lot of stories and I think there were a few things that I recalled from my experience that I had maybe packed away and hadn\u2019t thought, subconsciously tried not to think about for a while. I think that at one point a former commander, an Italian commander said that when war is declared guys will inevently be put in impossible positions where they have to make choices that that are extremely difficult.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s one guy in the story who during the initial invasion his unit, they were fighting Iraqi soldiers in southern Iraq and they killed one and then everyone turned away and except for him. He had to sit and watch that spot and then a kid ran up and picked his gun up and planted at the marines and so he shot him. That was his job, that was within the rules of engagement but it\u2019s shocking.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s just no way that\u2019s right in any moral sense and everyone knows that, it\u2019s not as if \u2026 and for some of those reasons he had trouble even telling anyone about it for a long time. He didn\u2019t tell the other guys that day. He didn\u2019t tell them because it just felt wrong and when the guys are all excited and they felt like they were making progress towards Bagdad and they were carrying out the mission they were supposed to, even some guys he would say, \u201cYeah I took it out a nester, I took out a sniper or I took out this and the other.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He said, \u201cI\u2019m not going to say I just took out a 7 year old.\u201d Then it also became clear over time like how much that weighed on him to, so stories like that are I think implicentaly going to be the most jarring but there were quite a few others that are shocking and in different ways as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: You talked about in the book how one philosopher calls this sorts of decisions and the effects of a moral wound and not necessarily a psychological wound, because some of these guys they don\u2019t have any really PTSD but there\u2019s something that\u2019s bothering them. How is their experience in Afghanistan or Iraq affected them in their post military life and how are they dealing with what they did there and what\u2019s the common response there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: I tried to resist the &#8230; I knew I couldn\u2019t answer those questions in terms of the military or in terms of veterans, I\u2019ve been part tried to focus on a couple of specific people because I knew it\u2019s going to be different depending on who you\u2019re talking to and it\u2019s going to be different depending on their circumstances, how they came back, when they came back, what they did afterwards.<\/p>\n<p>When you talk about moral injury there\u2019s a term it was quoted by Jonathan Shay who wrote a book called The Killers in Vietnam, which is a terrific book about what happens when the process of coming home, of being in war and then coming home and that\u2019s when you have a situation where something you did so thoroughly and deeply transgresses your sense of right and wrong that it is a kind to an injury, a physiological injury that could be in some cases devaluating because you walk around thinking, wanting to think you are this sort of person and that sort of person but somewhere in your head you think, \u201cOh I did that thing though and I will always be the person who did that thing, how can I pretend I am this or that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Like I say another psychiatrist called, said that a lot of guys it\u2019s almost they treat killing as a personal trial and they put themselves on trial in their mind and they have to figure out was it just, was it right, was it effective, was it \u2026 In some cases some of them might be thinking in the long run was it worth it and how that they judged themselves on that scale could matter as well.<\/p>\n<p>With the two guys that I focused on one whose in the 25 Marines Ben Nelson he was wounded and he was wounded in an incident where everyone else in this Humvee was killed, when they were in Iran by a car bomber in November of 2004. He went to Germany for treatment and he went back to DC for treatment, at the Maryland for treatment and then back to the west coast where he was based.<\/p>\n<p>He was almost by himself. He was still connected to the marines but he couldn\u2019t fight, he couldn\u2019t be part of his unit and his best friends and his commander, company commander had just been killed and he blamed himself for that. His commander had told him not to shoot at the bomber, explicit said, \u201cDo not shoot at that car,\u201d but he still felt that it was his fault in part and just so he\u2019s own surviving was an affront in a way.<\/p>\n<p>He was a bit adrift and he struggled a lot and it\u2019s taken years for him to get right with certain things and then only finally did he get some help from a very attentive and from what I can tell quite an insightful councilor through the VA, but this is just a couple of years ago. Meanwhile the other guy Brian Chantas, he\u2019d been scheduled to rotate out of Iraq before the battle of Fallujah in late 2004.<\/p>\n<p>He talked his way into staying with his guys, because he wanted to lead them into that battle. Towards the end of it he was actually sent home according to his orders and it was two days maybe of plane rides and car rides before he was back in the Baltimore airport with the same boots he was wearing in Fallujah just days earlier with some of that same dirt, some of that same blood on but he stayed in the military.<\/p>\n<p>He had an instruction role, a role as an instructor at the basic school; he had other roles in the following years and then eventually worked at The Naval Academy as a company commander and almost like a mentor in a lot of ways to Mid Shipmen and the cadets there. Not the cadets sorry the Mid Shipmen, The Naval Academy who in all likelihood were going to be going to war at some point and be leading other men.<\/p>\n<p>He had a structure around him, that I think was extremely helpful and then eventually the Mid Shipment started asking him questions about his own experience which provided a form in which he could talk about these things and look at them himself and consider them at the same time. He also was going a hundred miles an hour all the time as he admits. He\u2019s marriage fell apart.<\/p>\n<p>He says it was his fault, he neglected his family to a certain extent, he \u2026 and later he said he was effected by \u2026 He didn\u2019t want to say he had \u2026 he didn\u2019t say he had PTSD or something like that, but he said he was effected by what came out of his combat experience in a way that he needed to get a little bit of help. He did get some help but it was all in the military structure which I think was extremely important and has been very beneficial for him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I guess it\u2019s a lesson from there I guess would be that don\u2019t let these soldiers be by themselves, keep them in some structure when they get back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Yeah it\u2019s a lot of these guys, like John plus is a career soldier, he was in twenty years, he only recently retired last year. He was older when he went to battle so he had a bit more of a maturity about him, a bit more ability to put things in a broader perspective than some of these guys are 19 or 20. Then many of them do their service and then they\u2019re out and they have to go find other things when they\u2019re in their early 20\u2019s, mid 20\u2019s maybe and doing these things in isolation is really difficult and doing things where \u2026 because you\u2019re already in a situation where what happened.<\/p>\n<p>What you were just doing over there makes little sense over here and the context are different. That alone can be jarring yet you\u2019re walking around this world wherever you are, you\u2019re in your car or you\u2019re at the mall, you\u2019re at your job and people are talking about other things, so that thing that was most important to you, that was really life and death literally to you, days earlier is inconsequential, or seems inconsequential to people, around you so even on that social context.<\/p>\n<p>Exactly that isolation can be damaging. Some people like it, some people really don\u2019t want to talk about it and they\u2019ve got a way to make sense of it on their own, but the guys who need help, having them adrift and here\u2019s another aspect of the whole VA problem, which is that having them wait for months for an appointment or just being handed some pills or whatever it might be, just these limited band aid type approaches to counseling or treatment or even just listening can be even further isolating.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Yeah I guess this goes to my next question, we know the military does a lot to help a soldier actually kill but it sounds like they don\u2019t do too much to help these guys deal with it afterwards.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Not not explicitly, and I heard that from a lot of people, soldiers, psychiatrists, councilors, various sorts of people who study the military and it\u2019s hard. It just seems like it\u2019s not very well and I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s not very well understood or they don\u2019t have the money or the time to pay attention to these sorts of things or they don\u2019t really want guys thinking about them ahead of time, because again you would have a situation where I think from what I understand it\u2019s got to be really hard to go into a place and be killing other people when you\u2019re thinking like, \u201cHey I wonder if that guy has a family, or I wonder if this is going to bother me later, I wonder if I\u2019m going to see that guys face in a couple of years when I have a dream or when I smell something similar or hear a truck that backfiring and there\u2019s a similar sound.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>All those things can make someone hesitate and if they hesitate then they might not achieve their objective and someone else can get hurt, something, things could go wrong in one way or another and they are \u2026 Mr Junger says, \u201cWe are a tool of the government in the violent realm and that\u2019s what they have to be ready for, that\u2019s the job they\u2019re supposed to do that they signed up for and that they take pride in doing well.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At the same time though you have this sense of moral injury where something, that they just did something that is hard to feel good about over the long term. Ben Nelson says that in dealing with people he killed he wishes there had been some lessons about it ahead of time, like some warning that this might happen because for years he said he was just angry. He had this rage inside of him, he was anxious and frustrated every time he thought about it. He didn\u2019t have any way to contestrialize what\u2019s going on with him.<\/p>\n<p>He was just dealing with it on his own and he was lucky in that he has an incredibly mature and steadfast wife who fought through it all with him but some have not been so lucky. The other thing is that as it goes on it can get harder. You might want to think that this gets easier to deal with because over time you get used to it and it starts to &#8230; it becomes clearer like what it was all about and why and you can contextualize.<\/p>\n<p>A guy like Chantas has a very effective and impressive in a way ability to compartmentalize things like, \u201cThat\u2019s what happened there and then and that\u2019s why we did it and this is today and so I\u2019m doing this other thing,\u201d but not everyone can do that. If they could teach soldier that then it might be better for them.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know if it would be better for everyone else but later on in life you\u2019re thinking some of those thoughts like, \u201cI wonder if that guy had a family, I wonder if what could have been in his life or what happened there or was it worth it,\u201d and especially with the question of wars like this one or Vietnam where the outcome is equivocal at best where you can\u2019t say, \u201cYeah we did that so we could beat back the Nazi\u2019s.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s some real questions about whether it was a success or not. That factors in it as well and already now you had \u2026 I saw these guys on consecutive days in January, it was days after and insurgents had a retake in Fallujah and Ramadi. A whole host of questions came up around that with veterans and when I asked these guys about it and again this just speaks to the different kinds of personalities involved and the different perspectives, John said, \u201cWell that was then and there and we did our best and that it\u2019s unfortunate that it turned out this way but it\u2019s not going to make me think differently about my service.\u201d Ben Nelson said, \u201cWell then what did those guys die for.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I think that you mentioned statistics about how it gets harder the longer you go, that most of the suicides from Veterans are veterans over fifty years old. These are men who fought in Vietnam.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I guess they\u2019re dealing with their mortality.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Yeah I think it comes up; you start thinking, \u201cWhat have I accomplished? What do I have to \u2026? What may I have to answer for,\u201d based on whatever your faith is and then however you think you may pass through this life to the next. \u201cWhat was all that for, and is this good and does the disenchantment, does the isolation of that feeling of whatever it might be does it just increase or does it ever get better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that in a way now this is pure supposition, but I think in a way now the Vietnam war has been supplanted by these wars, so those guys are almost afterthoughts in a way that I would imagine be troubling for them and feel quite distancing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Why do you think it\u2019s important for civilians to understand what it\u2019s like for a soldier to kill?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: I think on a few different levels and I think there\u2019s a political level in which they should understand that when war is discussed or declared this will happen, that people will be sent to go do these things and find themselves in these situations. Then they\u2019ll have to deal with it afterwards and that they should not \u2026 We all have to take some responsibility for this because it\u2019s our country.<\/p>\n<p>I think also there\u2019s such a casual use of war metaphors and imagery and video games and all of the rest and popular culture that having people take a real square look at what war actually is and what it actually does and what it actually involves is important. I think that even on just a very personal level understanding that there are guys like this out there now and that it\u2019s really not enough to just say, \u201cThanks for your service. I support the troops,\u201d and all the rest. That\u2019s short hand for addressing them and addressing these things and that if there really is going to be support it should based on a real understanding of the actual experience.<\/p>\n<p>I think also it\u2019s good to understand what the training that is done and the focus and lethal energy and that\u2019s required to carry out this job. This is one of the things that I actually liked about American Sniper is that, that is useful in a tactical sense for commanders trying to carry out their objectives, but at the same time those commanders have to control it.<\/p>\n<p>They have to figure out, \u201cHow do we as leaders direct that so it doesn\u2019t get out of hand in the worst case scenarios,\u201d and there have been a few where it turns to actual murder and just get in completely, goes outside the boundaries of what\u2019s even acceptable in war time and that, that responsibility is not just on the battle field.<\/p>\n<p>It goes back to whoever declares the war, who plans the war, who says, \u201cThis is a good idea we should do this,\u201d all that stuff is part of it so I think it\u2019s an interesting thing. I was talking to a friend about this regarding American Sniper with some of the criticisms that, \u201cOh Chris Kyle\u2019s, he\u2019s barbaric,\u201d and blablabla. Yes but that was his job and so what does that make the person who sent him here. To me these are questions that just are worth looking at and if someone wants to understand what war really is it\u2019s a \u2026 I think the onus is on them to look at these sorts of questions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Well Phil where can readers learn more about your work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: This is the big thing, working on over of late The Kill Switch it\u2019s on Amazon and it\u2019s a Kindle single but you don\u2019t need a Kindle to read it, you can \u2026 there\u2019s a Kindle app and you can download that and then you could read it on anything, so I would hope anyone who wants to know more about this would have a look. I did a review on American Sniper for foreign policy, all the things. There\u2019s some stories on Time and National Geographic and that could be tracked down and then I\u2019ll have to figure out what I do next.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Well Phil Zabriskie thanks so much for your time. It\u2019s been a pleasure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Phil Zabriskie<\/strong>: Sure thank you Brett I really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Our guest today was Phil Zabriskie; he\u2019s the author of the Amazon\u2019s single The Kill Switch. You can find that on amazon.com and download it to your Kindle app, it\u2019s just $2.99. I recommend you pick it up; it\u2019s a very fascinating and jarring read. You can follow Phil on Twitter at killswitchstory and you\u2019ll find links and references that supplement what he wrote about in The Kill Switch, so give him a follow.<\/p>\n<p>Well that wraps up another addition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at theartofmanliness.com. One way you can support the podcast, support the website is buying something from our stores, store.artofmanliness.com.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ll find t-shirts; you\u2019ll find really good manly coffee mugs. We also have our Ben Franklin journal, The Art of Manliness exclusive, you can\u2019t find this anywhere else, so it\u2019s store.artofmanliness.com. I\u2019d really appreciate your support. Until next time this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>What does it mean to kill for your country? How do you learn to do it? What does it feel like in the moment? And how do you feel about it when you&#8217;re back home from war and with your family? In The Kill Switch&nbsp;writer Phil Zabriskie interviews combat veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq 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